Coallition casualties in Iraq over time and space...

[Target]

http://www.obleek.com/iraq/index.html

You can basically "turn off" all the other countries besides the US, it won't change the outcome much. Hard to watch though, when you take in what each blip means.

[iart7]

RE: animation by tim@obleek.com
who "originally set out to create something as objective and apolitical as I possibly can".

I can't see how this animation could be anything but unobjective or political! If this guy doesn't have a political agenda, then I'll cook some of that post turtle soup and eat it. And for his next animated project, Pinocchio will show each and every murder of civilians by Marines in Iraq.

Seriously, this animation is like reading out the names of each dead soldier on television (one at a time, slowly) or like showing videos of flag draped coffins coming off airplanes.

How could this presentation be more meaningful to me? Make it one of a series of animations that include at least:

1. Iraqi civilian deaths caused by IEDs and terrorist bombs.

2. Death toll due to Saddam Hussein prior end of his rule. Which were deaths of civilians in the Kurdish north regions by poison gas bombs (WMDs).

3. Death toll of innocents in the Spain terrorist attacks.

4. A giant BLIP and SOUND TICs for American death toll in the World Trade Center attacks. (Maybe he will put tiny airplane icons with explosions and blood spatters.)
Total Deaths...........................2,752
Total Injured ...........................2,261
Firefighter Deaths......................343
Police Deaths..............................75
American Airlines Flight #11
WTC North Tower.........................92
United Airlines Flight #175
WTC South Tower.........................65

Total Deaths The Pentagon...........125
Total Injured The Pentagon............76
American Airlines Flight #77
The Pentagon..............................64
United Airlines Flight #93
Shanksville, PA...........................44

5. Just as a comparison to the Iraq War, how about listing the single Battle of Iwo Jima casualties:
American losses included...........6821 killed, 19,217 wounded
Japanese Deaths....................23,000

6. Jews killed by Hitler (though some would have us believe
it never happened):............6,000,000

But, you'll never see this guy make these animations, that would be a waste of his "apolitical" time... and the most ridiculous item of the day.

Art
THE GOOD WAR And Those Who Refused To Fight It - PBS (http://www.pbs.org/itvs/thegoodwar/story.html)
Some are still alive today!

[Target]

Ummm... you couldnt make one for the Jews of WW2 because getting an exact date and location of death for every one would be nearly impossible. It's BECAUSE Iraq war dead (coallition) casualties are so well documented that you could make a thing like this.

It has meaning to me. It outlines the cost to the coallition in terms of numbers killed, and really, what other measure can you have for the cost of war that makes any sense than that?

[iart7]

Cost of War?

I can't imagine the pain felt by someone who loses a loved one to war. Let's say person X is one of those in such pain. How do you think person X would feel seeing Tim's animation? Would it give meaning to their loss? Would it help them to see the "cost" of war to the coalition? Does this map honor the dead? I think not. I think Tim has an anti-war (probably even moreso an anti-Bush) "agenda" in showing this map. I could be wrong, I sometimes am, but I felt disturbed seeing that map, as much as you did. But to "personalize" a list of statistics in any way, to me is as much a statement as it is an indictment. Perhaps I felt disturbed for another reason.

War is sometimes/often necessary. There is evil in the world. We have to confront and fight evil or we go the way of the dinosaurs. To say war is wrong, or to be anti-war is foolish. To say the Iraq war is wrong is a mistake. I think it is just as wrong to say the war against Tojo or Hitler was wrong. AND there were some who felt that way too. I don't know who Tim Klimowicz is, so when I try to find out more about the map he made, I am told he is concerned about the government's role in controlling information about the wartime deaths and their location? COME ON! I don't think that is what is really bothering him. This project stinks of "Bush Hater!"

You know Matt, I don't really mind such a map, but using Tim's restraints of "TIME AND SPACE", it would mean more to me if it were presented to us several years AFTER the end of the Iraq War. To make it WHILE our troops are getting killed by terrorists who would rather kill us on our soil is a statement or rather a "protest" he feels he has to make. But to me it is a treasonous act that gives aid and comfort to our enemy in an ever-so-subtle a way. What bothers me is people like Tim don't really want us to win this war. He thinks the U.S. is wrong, and that is why he wants to make us uneasy about it while it is going on. He wants to make the war as painful to us as he can so we somehow will "pull out" and say, "mea culpa" to the world and Al Gore/John Kerry.

Digging into Tims web site, I discovered he is a "graphic artist". He uses film and slided. He does print work too, creating web sites and posters. And guess what? He might even be anti-Iraq War. I am not fooled by his "concern" about the possible inaccuracy of the data or that the government might be "controlling information during wartime ... that might sway the public's perception of reality."

http://www.obleek.com/
click on PRINT to see his work in printed material, then
view Invitation to War, button #5

If I'm wrong, I apologize to Tim

Thanks, I'll let you have the last word.

Art

[flubby]

@iart

war is alway wrong. Call me foolish :).

You should always try all possible ways, to solve a conflict without war. The war in irak based on lies. Lies spread out by Mr. Bush and these lies are the reason, why a lot of people think it was wrong. Second point is, that the war costs a lot of money (beside uncounted numbers of casualities on both sides.) Money wich would be better used to strongen the opposite forces in the last 20 years against saddam and so on.. But i will stop now. It makes no sence to talk about things, wich already happened and i don´t want to disturb the peace in this forum :).

Regards

Flubby

[Crumpp]

Everyone seems to forget that looking forward from March 2003, the vast majority of people supported going into Iraq. Concocting some vast conspiracy theory that Bush manipulated or falsified information is rather naive.

Does anyone think a country that devoted 23% of its GNP to defense would not have a chemical stockpile?

Almost all proliferant states since World War I have manufactured vesicants, principally sulfur mustard, bis (2-chloroethyl) sulfide.

Production of the nerve agents requires significantly more sophisticated chemical processing. In a majority of these materials, there are corrosive chemicals in the process that require specialized corrosion-resistant construction materials. With the exception of GA (tabun), manufactured by the Germans in World War II and the Iraqis during the Iran-Iraq war, G-agent production involves both chlorination and fluorination steps. Both of these steps require special and expensive construction materials. Reactors, degassers, distillation columns, and ancillary equipment made of high nickel alloys or precious metals are needed to contain the corrosive products and by products. Only the last step of the process involves the highly toxic material, so that special air handling equipment would be needed for only a small portion of the facility.


http://www.fas.org/cw/production.htm

It is not an easy process to liberate and rebuild a country. People forget that even after the end of WWII, acts of violence continued:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/952253/posts

So here's a book I'd like to get my hands on: The Last Nazis, the historical accounting of the Nazi resistance in Germany from 1945 to 1947, where fascist forces used sabotage and terrorism in an attempt to resist the Allied occupation.


Of course there is one huge difference between that and current circumstances: there were not forces in countries surrounding Germany that wanted to see the allies fail, except Stalin's forces. Unlike Iraq today, where certain religious factions are able to import terrorists from neighboring countries such as Iran and Syria. Still and all, it's worth remembering always that no occupation is without a resistance, and without unanticipated difficulties.


Once more we have kicked the hornets nest. Centrally located, Iraq affords an easy journey for every Jihadist Terrorist to come over and try to kill Americans. I for one am very thankful we are doing most of the fighting there and not in the streets of our cities.

All the best,

Crumpp

[iart7]

I'm working on an animated map of my own right now. It will show all the American deaths (time and location) caused by terrorists in the United States since 9-1-1.

Uh, never mind!

Art

I really like the American, German, Japanese, Russian, British, Polish, Swiss, Australian, Italian, Brasilian, etc. icons available to those who want one for their forum posts. What I really like is that there ISN'T one for the Iraqi Air Force!

[flubby]

Everyone seems to forget that looking forward from March 2003, the vast majority of people supported going into Iraq. Concocting some vast conspiracy theory that Bush manipulated or falsified information is rather naive.


Yes in the USA for shure, but imho this based on the misinformation. Bush talked about weapons of mass destruction. The USA presented reconissance photos of mobile plants producing biological weapons. (After the war they never found any weapon!) and Bush talked about Bin Laden, supported by Saddam, wich is not true, because Bin Laden is a fundamentalist and Saddam saw him as a threat and not a friend. Again all claims have been wrong as we know today. Colin Paul deeply regets this. He talked about that after he retired and he told us, that the information was wrong!


Does anyone think a country that devoted 23% of its GNP to defense would not have a chemical stockpile?


Show me only one proven fact about that crumpp :).
Again. Allied forces never found one chemical bomb nor any biologocal weapon after the second war!!


It is not an easy process to liberate and rebuild a country. People forget that even after the end of WWII, acts of violence continued:


The liberation of Germany is not comparable to the Iraq, because it was obvious, who started the war and the germans have the same christian based history than the USA. You cannot compare this. In the eyes of the huge majority of all moslems the Iraq war was wrong and Guantanamo and other unhappy things like tortures in Iraq prisons don´t help the USA. (BTW in Europe there is a big majority against the war, too)


Once more we have kicked the hornets nest. Centrally located, Iraq affords an easy journey for every Jihadist Terrorist to come over and try to kill Americans. I for one am very thankful we are doing most of the fighting there and not in the streets of our cities.

All the best,

Crumpp

I believe that the war was wrong. Look ar the Iran. He now tries to produce the bombe. Northern Korea has the bomb. The USA are not able to do anything against, because the have no money left, and they destabilized the region so much, that a third war would be a desaster. Bush knows that and thats the reason, why he tries to convince the Iran by using the UN. I am in doubt, that this will work.
The fundamentalists are increasing and i am shure that there will be cruel terroristic attacks in the future in the whole world. In Europe in the US and somwhere else.

The war helps Bin Laden and other fundamentalists to recruit more and more terrorists. The war made the world more unsecure and nothing else.

All imho and i don´t want to offend someone.

Regards

Flubby

[iart7]

Hey, Flubby, don't apologize for being wrong.

Your humble opinion is welcome all the time and I respect your opinion. You don't offend anyone.

Answer me this puzzle:

1. You're a student in school.
2. Knives are not allowed at school.
If you tell me you don't have a knife in your pocket, but a big bulge shows in your pants, what should happen?
3. Let's say, there is a law that says you get kicked out of school for bringing a knife to school.
4. You say you won't let anyone LOOK in your pocket. You insist.
5. Principal, teachers, parents, janitors, school bus drivers all decide to give you 14 chances to empty your pocket to prove you don't have a knife.
6. You refuse 14 times.
7. Principal KICKS you out of school on your ASS. You never can get diploma, never can go to college, are a street bum the rest of your life! Your wife leaves you, your kids commit suicide, etc. All because of whose fault? (you seem to blame the principal for all this!!!)
8. Later it is discovered you probably didn't have a knife after all! But, it is never proven, because you changed pants so often and destroyed some of your pants, so WHO KNOWS WHAT? But you never let anyone even LOOK to prove you didn't have a knife. All you had to do was open up your pockets. Always you had that bulge in your pants.

Now How Stupid IS THAT!
No, not how stupid the student was to refuse, HOW STUPID it is to blame the principal?
Flubby, you blame the principal because now that we have more and more violence at school, mostly knife fights soon to escalate to gun fights!

SORRY for all the long-winded examination of Bush's Iraq War. I hope you understand my point. But I'm from Texas where schools have ZERO-TOLERANCE for WEAPONS.

art

[flubby]

I understand you and i understand your sarcasm.

But sorry, live is much more complex than you try to tell me :)

Regards

Flubby

[Crumpp]

Again. Allied forces never found one chemical bomb nor any biologocal weapon after the second war!!


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/13/AR2005081300530.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/obermann/040520

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/8/13/224902.shtml

http://209.157.64.201/focus/f-news/1163879/posts

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40754

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/25/iraq.main/

Your argument requires the suspension of belief and that Bush is a master plotter to what gain, I don't know? Maybe your thinking oil? You should become better informed on the oil business. They are not doing as well you think.

Insurance companies are making a mint however!

Bush was extremely wealthy before he became President of the United States. As one of the top leaders of the Free World, I find it difficult to swallow any assumption he was seeking more power after he was in office.

If you think he was looking to estabilish an "American Empire" then you do not know much about the history or culture of the United States. The American people simply would not stand for taking "colonies" or governing an Empire. Goes against the whole idea of our Nation.

The most likely explaination is that Bush was acting in good faith on the WMD based on the most current intelligence our system could provide. Intelligence however is a flawed business by it's very nature. Trying to discover "secrets" others are working to hide leaves room for mistakes.

The upside is that the United States added muscle to the UN's 11 broken resolutions. Saddam obvious thought the UN was a joke and could do nothing to stop him.

Of course given the UN's track record I would agree.

You cannot compare this.

Why not? Almost all liberations throughout history have had to deal with residual violence. The cries of "the sky is falling" coming from our fast food pop culture Western Society are certainly premature.

Guantanamo and other unhappy things like tortures in Iraq prisons don´t help the USA.

On Guantanamo the United States faces some unique legal challenges. It is simply a situation that is not covered by our system. Terrorist under the Law are not soldiers and cannot be afforded POW status. Since they are citizens nor residents of any state, which civilian court conducts the trials? These and other questions have been making their way through the legal systems. The courts are working them out and our system will find the best way for us to deal with them.

http://usinfo.state.gov/is/Archive/2005/Jun/16-497875.html?chanlid=is

The "torture" in Iraqi Prison's is yet another example of the United States disclosing the results of an investigation the US Military initiated based on the criminal conduct of individuals. That one incident of criminal conduct appears to have become what the world thinks is our normal behavior. Shame they ignore the conduct of Terrorist, even elevate their status to legal combatant's with the label "insurgent". Facts are an "insurgent" is required to follow the Laws of Land Warfare. If they do not, they are not legal combatants but simply criminals.

The United States shows the world a self policing professional Military and it gets spit upon.

Crazy.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Target]

Personally I never bought into much of an "evil empire" theory where Bush Jr. was involved. I think mainly he's just really stupid.

Smart and evil is bad, just plane dumb can be even worse, especially in the oval.

<shrug>

[eretrc]

there must be a way to stop U.S and British soldiers dieing in Iraq. NUKES!:veg:

[flubby]

Got me Crumpp,

they found a bomb. Maybe one who was forgotten after the Iran/Iraq war.
So wich chemicals they have beenn producing in the plant they found? E605? Come on. Your links have nothing to do with the picture Mr. Bush painted about the Iraq, before the war started. The Iraq never was a threat and i still say, that Mr. Bush was a lier.


Your argument requires the suspension of belief and that Bush is a master plotter to what gain, I don't know? Maybe your thinking oil? You should become better informed on the oil business. They are not doing as well you think.

Insurance companies are making a mint however!

Bush was extremely wealthy before he became President of the United States. As one of the top leaders of the Free World, I find it difficult to swallow any assumption he was seeking more power after he was in office.


Dunno if it was oil or siliness or whatever. I don´t care the reasons.


If you think he was looking to estabilish an "American Empire" then you do not know much about the history or culture of the United States. The American people simply would not stand for taking "colonies" or governing an Empire. Goes against the whole idea of our Nation.


Maybe Mr. Bush is really thinking that he has to play the worlds policeman.


The most likely explaination is that Bush was acting in good faith on the WMD based on the most current intelligence our system could provide. Intelligence however is a flawed business by it's very nature. Trying to discover "secrets" others are working to hide leaves room for mistakes.


You really believe that? Oh man, i am much more mistruthful than you are and i cannot believe that the strongest nation in the world, with one of the best intelligent services is not able to find this out? Other intelligent services from other nations told Mr. Bush, that he was wrong. The UN inspectors told him, too.
No this was no fault, this was a well planned misinformation. Nothing else.


The upside is that the United States added muscle to the UN's 11 broken resolutions. Saddam obvious thought the UN was a joke and could do nothing to stop him.

Of course given the UN's track record I would agree.


Yeah it did, but there was still no reason, to attack the Iraq, because the UN inspectors had all possibilities to controle the Iraqs weapons production and they did.


Why not? Almost all liberations throughout history have had to deal with residual violence. The cries of "the sky is falling" coming from our fast food pop culture Western Society are certainly premature.


I am in doubt, that the "liberation" will work in the Iraq and that the USA has the endurance to stay there for some more years.


On Guantanamo the United States faces some unique legal challenges. It is simply a situation that is not covered by our system. Terrorist under the Law are not soldiers and cannot be afforded POW status. Since they are citizens nor residents of any state, which civilian court conducts the trials? These and other questions have been making their way through the legal systems. The courts are working them out and our system will find the best way for us to deal with them.

Thats typical for the USA at the moment. Your gouverment is talking about freedom, human rights and it´s neglecting the human rights to people, wich they call terrorists. Other countries would say they are freedom fighters. Its only a matter of the point of view and insted to pick up the chance to show the rest of the world, especially the islamic one, that the USA respects the human rights, they give them all arguments to fight against. Thats foolish. The UN herself denounces guantanamo but Mr. Bush irgnores it ...


The "torture" in Iraqi Prison's is yet another example of the United States disclosing the results of an investigation the US Military initiated based on the criminal conduct of individuals. That one incident of criminal conduct appears to have become what the world thinks is our normal behavior. Shame they ignore the conduct of Terrorist, even elevate their status to legal combatant's with the label "insurgent". Facts are an "insurgent" is required to follow the Laws of Land Warfare. If they do not, they are not legal combatants but simply criminals.


Criminals have nor rights? They can be threaten in every way? Come on Crumpp, how does it fit to the roots of your country?
Thats cruel inhuman and nothing else and if you really agree, that a torture is a legal method of investigation then this would horrify me a lot.
You know the latin sentence "in dubio pro reo"? As long as the prisoner is not sentenced, he has to be handled as an innocent. This would be the right way. Nothing else.


The United States shows the world a self policing professional Military and it gets spit upon.

Crazy.

All the best,

Crumpp

Self policing is the point. Tae USA is the strongest nation, but this does not mean, that it has the right to do what it wants and neglect all other countries. No one (in the western world) is spitting on the USA Crumpp, but the western world is suspicious against the US gouverment, because Mr. Bush made things, wich are hardly to understand for a lot of people.

Regards

Flubby

[Crumpp]

with one of the best intelligent services

See that is a wrong assumption right there. The United States has some of the worst intelligence in the world. We have great gadgets and can take some great pictures from space.

However we have a very poor HUMINT capability. It is just hard to keep secrets in a free society. Especially one with a culture of distrust of Government. If you can't keep secrets, then you cannot keep your foreign contacts safe. When the Freedom of Information Act was passed, within a few weeks, thousands of US foriegn intelligence agents were in jail or dead. Additionally rules were put in place that greatly restricted our access to HUMINT. Criminal types were off limits as a source. If you want to know what is going on the seedy underworld, you have to talk to people who exist in it.

Some of those rules have changed due to September 11th.

http://www.access.gpo.gov/intelligence/int/pdf/int023.pdf

The UN inspectors told him, too.

The UN inspectors had no crediability. They were led on goose chase after goose chase. Saddam was intentionally running a deception Operation using them. He wanted the world to think he had large stockpiles of WMD. It kept both Syria and Iran in check.

Yeah it did, but there was still no reason, to attack the Iraq, because the UN inspectors had all possibilities to controle the Iraqs weapons production and they did.


UN Resolutions Iraq dismissed:

http://www.state.gov/p/io/fs/2003/18850.htm

Saddam resisted the weapons inspections, though sometimes apparently facilitating them.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/iraq/saddam_hussein.html

Iraq began playing hide-and-seek with UN inspectors in 1991. In December 1998, Saddam stopped all cooperation with the UN, refusing to let any weapons inspectors into the country.


In July 1998, Iraq seized from the hands of UNSCOM inspectors an Iraqi Air Force document indicating that Iraq had misrepresented the expenditure of over 6,000 bombs which may have contained over 700 tons of chemical agent. Iraq continues to refuse to provide this document to the UN.


Iraq continues to deny weaponizing VX nerve agent, despite the fact that UNSCOM found VX nerve agent residues on Iraqi SCUD missile warhead fragments. Based on its investigations, international experts concluded that "Iraq has the know-how and process equipment, and may possess precursors to manufacture as much as 200 tons of VX ... The retention of a VX capability by Iraq cannot be excluded by the UNSCOM international expert team."


Iraq has refused to credibly account for 500 tons of SCUD propellant, over 40 SCUD biological and conventional warheads, 7 Iraqi-produced SCUDs, and truckloads of SCUD components.


Iraq refuses to allow inspection of thousands of Ministry of Defense and Military Industries Commission documents relating to biological and chemical weapons and long-range missiles.


In 1995, Iraqis who conducted field trials of R-400 bombs filled with biological agents described the tests to UNSCOM experts in considerable detail, including the use of many animals. These field trials were reflected in Iraq's June 1996 biological weapons declaration. Yet, amazingly, Iraq now denies that any such trials were conducted at all.


In September 1995, Iraq finally declared the existence of two projects to disseminate biological agents from Mirage F-1 and MiG-21 aircraft, yet there is no evidence that the prototype weapons and aircraft were ever destroyed. There is also no evidence that the 12 Iraqi helicopter-borne aerosol generators for biological weapon delivery were ever destroyed.


The Iraqis have repeatedly changed their story about their biological weapons warheads. Iraq has revised several times its declarations regarding the precise locations of warhead destruction and the fill of warheads. The movements of concealed warheads prior to unilateral destruction, claimed by Iraq, have been proven to be false.


At the request of the UNSC, Brazilian Ambassador Amorim led a review of the mechanisms designed to ensure Iraqi disarmament. His 7 April 1999 report affirmed that future work "should be based on the full implementation of the plans for ongoing monitoring and verification approved by Security Council Resolution 715 (1991)" and called for Iraq to provide UNSCOM and IAEA inspectors with all the rights called for by UNSC resolutions 687, 707, and 1051." Rather than do so, Saddam has refused to allow weapons inspectors into Iraq.


http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/02/iraq99.htm

I would hardly characterize Saddams relationship with the UN inspectors as one of open and honest cooperation.

I am in doubt, that the "liberation" will work in the Iraq and that the USA has the endurance to stay there for some more years.


You maybe right. Americans are not noted for our long term spine or staying power when things are tough. Least that is our reputation with the world and exactly what OBL was counting on when he ordered 9/11.

torture is a legal method of investigation

Torture is not legal and the United State prosecutes those who cross the line. It is a demonstrated fact.

How are the Terrorist trials going for the Daniel Pearl or Nick Berg? Did they get a conviction yet???

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119615,00.html

Baghdad, Iraq - Two Assyrian Christian children have been killed in Baghdad. Raneed Raad 16 and her sister
Raphid 6 were slaughtered in their home. The family who are well known Assyrian Christians had been threatened. While the family was out terrorists entered and shot the two Children at point blank range.


November 2, 2004 (Baghdad) An unidentified group surprised and fired upon an Assyrian family in Dora, Meekanik quarters, south of Baghdad. 'Alaa' Andrawis (b. 1965), his wife Evelyn Malkizdaq, and their 10-years old son were shot at while in their car. Andrawis and his son were killed instantly, meanwhile, the mother her head was badly wounded. She was transferred to a hospital where she is undergoing surgery. 'Alaa' Andrawis and Evelyn Malkizdaq had three children; the oldest is 12 years old. Fifteen days earlier, Andrawis's cousin, Yasmin Boodagh, and her daughter were killed in Dora by a bombed car. Additionally, beginning of this month, Sargon, son of the Assyrian poet andwriter Odisho Malko, was kidnapped in Dora. The family had to give the kidnappers their private car and a certain amount of money as ransom to secure Sargon's release.


October 21, 2004 (Baghdad) Layla Elias Kakka Essa (aged 30s) lived peacefully in Baghdad. Economical hardship forced her to seek employment as an instant translator in the Assyrian quarters of Dora region in Baghdad to support her two very young children, Manar and Mina. She was killed in cold blood on Thursday October 21 while on her way back home after completing her tenth day of employment. The killer mercilessly emptied his bullets in her head.


October 5, 2004 The Christians of Ba'asheeqa and Bahzani, near Mosul in north of Iraq, were shocked this afternoon when they discovered Fadi's body. The 'Aaid Khidir Shamoon family was devastated as they witnessed the body of their 15-years-old son Fadi. Fadi's body was found burned after he was beheaded. Fadi was kidnapped while he was riding his bike, which his father has given to him as a present, in the 'Ain 'alaq orchards in Ba'asheeqa around 12:00 noon.

And it goes on an on.......

http://www.christiansofiraq.com/update.html

Self policing is the point. Tae USA is the strongest nation, but this does not mean, that it has the right to do what it wants and neglect all other countries. No one (in the western world) is spitting on the USA Crumpp, but the western world is suspicious against the US gouverment, because Mr. Bush made things, wich are hardly to understand for a lot of people.


As an American I am always suspicious of Big Government. The price of Freedom is eternal vigilance.

Suspicion though has to be tempered by common sense. Otherwise it will move from a healthy caution to paranioia.

Self Policing is the whole point and litmus test, for sure.

All the best,

Crumpp

[iart7]

Dang nab it, Target. Look what you started with that anti-war guys map!

Okay, Flubby, what about the attack on the US. This attack was an act of war, RIGHT? Similar to Pearl Harbor? What should we have done?

1. You have to admit. It was Al Qaida. RIGHT?

a. we ignore the attack
b. we get the UN to handle Al Qaida (that is to say, go back to a.)
c. we attack back (that is to say we defend ourselves against future attacks)
Bush chose c.
Eisenhower, Churchill, Bill Clinton, would all have done the same as would have the vacilators AlGore and Kerry. The only one I'm not sure about is Ted Kennedy, though he is pretty far from the presidency, a lot of people still listen to him. Al Quaida was in Afghanistan. We went there and got most of them. We didn't get the leader, Bin Ladin, but we got close. Now we found out that your darling of Europe and the UN, Bill Clinton had a chance to capture him, but turned the offer down. ANyway, Afghanistan was all right with you, RIGHT?

2. Do you believe Saddam was helping Al Qaida? Clinton, Kerry, AlGore, Blaire and the leaders of Italy, Poland, Spain, Bulgaria, Thailand, Denmark, Hungary, Australia, Romania and a few others all decided Saddam had blood on his hands. Come on, Flubby, ___YES or ___NO?

3. Why do you think the US (and other countries) have been attacked? _________________________________ (write your answere ere) Do you believe we provoked the attacks? Was Bush to blame? (remember the story about the school principal) How about the first attack on the Trade Center in New York? Do you beleive the US is imperialistic? When have we ever gone to another country or continent with intent of conquest and colonization. Are we in Korea, Japan or Germany as OCCUPATION FORCES? Believe me, as soon as Iraq is ready, we will pull out. England used to be imperialistic, as was Germany, Italy, Japan. The US? NEVER.

I don't get it. We are not conquerors. We do not exploit Muslims. I think we were even on their side in Bosnia. We helped the Afghans fight Russia. I think if CLINTON had been in power on 911, we'd be in Iraq now. But because the way-left liberals hate Bush, nothing he does will ever be right. If he were Santa Clause, you'd spit on him. Right?

Al Qaida terrorists were caught plotting in Canada over the weekend, but what bothers you guys most is that Bush is still president. If Al Qaida attacked your own country, you'd find a way to blame Bush. Michelle Malkin wrote in the paper today about the Haditha situation. She said that if a few Marines killed some innocent civilians it is a rare aberation, but it is a way of life for Al Qaida.

Whose side are you on?

art

[Target]

Sorry. Just thought the map was interesting. I WILL say, I don't think that being disagreeable with the Bush admin and finding fault with the decision to go to war with Iraq and/or how the war was/is being fought constitutes providing aid and comfort to the enemy aka treason.

That's a stretch. AND it's a stretch that directly impunes ME and MY beliefs as somehow being "alligned" with AQ and against our own troops. THAT, my friend, is a crock of poopie.

[Kraken]

(not involved in the conversation)

Hey Target, nice post time! 06-06-2006 6:06 PM

How long have you been planning that? :D

(/ not involved in the conversation)

[iart7]

Decision to go to war? It has already been made. EVERYONE made it, not just Bush.

You have a right to disagree with Bush.

My point is that we are at war now!

We were attacked. We are fighting an enemy that would have you and me beheaded on a whim.

What would you have had Bush do?

While we are at war, what should we (you and I) do?
Let's suspend the Bush-bashing and bickering about why we are at war until it is over. Or at least for today (June 6th). I heard the US lost 6,600 men on Normady. Though not the deadliest day for us, today we should remember.

+
Art

http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-wars-and-disasters-by-death-toll

[Target]

Its BECAUSE I feel that Bush et al (yes even the dems who supported the IRAQ war [note i did not mention afghanistan]) are responsible for WASTING US soldiers lives on Iraq that I feel strongly, ESPECIALLY as we remember Normandy, that he and his admin should be called to task for entering into an uncalled for fight with a minor world player while taking our eye OFF THE BALL in Afghanistan. Bad intel or no, Bush PUSHED the war in Iraq on us and on top of that he totally forked up the op and made every rookie mistake (strategically) that one COULD make. And the cost in our soldiers lives AND in the repurcussions of not effectively fighting AQ are too high to be ignored.

What you want me to do is shut up and wait for 08. I won't. It needs to be shouted from the rooftops. Our leader is an idiot, we know it, and in 08, we'll fix it. Then we'll be able to (I hope) to join forces once again with the world at our backs to face the real enemy. Religious extremism.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

<Target hops off the soap box.>

[iart7]

matt,

lately, you've brought sleepless nights to my days.

but today you brought a big smile to my face. kind of like my avatar, only more.

:)

art

[Crumpp]

ESPECIALLY as we remember Normandy, that he and his admin should be called to task for entering into an uncalled for fight with a minor world player while taking our eye OFF THE BALL in Afghanistan.

Hey Matt,

Speaking from a strictly Military Standpoint, Going into Iraq is a great strategic move on our part.

1. We are now centrally located in the ME and can strike anywhere in the region. We now have capabilities that were pipe dreams before the Iraq invasion.

2. We directly threaten some States which are known to sponser Terrorism, IE Syria and Iran. That is why both countries are financing the Terrorist in Iraq. They do not want it to be stable and very much would like to see us pull out of there. Iraq IS the decisive campaign in the War on Terror.

In order to win, we have to follow the money the bad guys are acquiring. Afghanistan is marginalized due to geography. Heck, OBL was asking Abu Musab Zarqawi for MONEY to continue the fight!

This money comes from many sources. The biggest players are private interest in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, and Iran. Saudi Arabia and Egypt have both declared themselves firm allies against Terrorism. While their citizens may not always work toward that alliance, the governments have been working very hard with us. Things are getting better everyday with them.

Syria and Iran are a different story and require more of the "carrot and stick" approach. We now have a real stick we can use in our bases in Iraq.

3. Saddam was most certainly a hostile Government with a very real possibility of possesing WMD and the will to use them. I don't think Saddam would have lost much sleep if Iraqi made Sarin was released by AQ in American cities. Would he have risked it? Maybe, Maybe not. Can we afford to take that chance?

4. It gives the enemy a place to come out into the open and fight. That is what we want. Once out in the open, we can kill them. Every extremist with a bone to pick now has an easy travel to Iraq were they can take shots at Americans. Good, if they shoot at us, we can shoot at them. Our technology and training is among the best in the world.

Going into Iraq was the plan from Sept. 12th.......

All the best,

Crumpp

[flubby]

Crumpp,

yes from a military point of view you have a very good strategic position.

From a political point of view, you have the badest position you ever had in this region.

And you have no money left to make another war like this in the next years.

So you are sitting there and can do nothing... ;)

Regards

Flubby

[Target]

I don't see it Crumpp. The ONLY way an installed government there can look even halfway independent is to kick us the hell out. If you ask my the "decisive campeign in the war on terror" was lost a couple years ago when we let OBL slip through our fingers in Afghanistan.

BTW, glad I could brighten your day, art. :D

[Crumpp]

And you have no money left to make another war like this in the next years.


Hey Flubby,

How do you figure that? This is a cheap war in comparision to ones in the past.

Our economy is stable and doing just fine.

U.S. economic growth was widespread in 2005, as gross state product (GSP) grew in 49 of 50 states and the District of Columbia. Eight of the ten fastest-growing states are west of the Mississippi River. However, as compared to 2004, growth slowed for the nation and most states. Newly available advance estimates of total GSP for 2005 and revised estimates by North American Industry Classification System (NAICS) industries for 1998-2004 are now available.

Real GDP increased at an annual rate of 5.3 percent in Q1 2006, according to preliminary estimates.

http://www.bea.gov/bea/glance.htm

If you ask my the "decisive campeign in the war on terror" was lost a couple years ago when we let OBL slip through our fingers in Afghanistan.


Have you thought about the fact, if we kill OBL a couple of not so good things will happen Militarily:

1. The majority of the US Public will consider the war won. In fact someone else, someone we don't know as well, will just take over AQ leadership and use OBL's death as rallying point. The organization would go even farther underground. It would be much more difficult to track them and stop attacks.

2. Consider the Allies war in the Atlantic for a second. After we broke the Naval Enigma, we knew the position of every U-Boat at sea. If we rushed out and sunk them, the Germans would have simply changed the codes.

Instead they decided to only sink two boats a month based on Enigma decrypts. The rest they just routed convoy's around. By the end of the war, the German Submarine service was decimated and it ceased to be a real threat to the war effort the moment the codes were broken.

AQ has not been able to launch one successful attack in the United States since September 11th. It is not for a lack of trying.

Killing OBL at this point would be a tactical victory but a strategic mistake.

Once the ME is reformed, providing their people with greater social mobility, freedom, and a solid economy, OBL will pay his debts.

The opinion of the average man who lives in the ME is much more important now to us than anyone else in the world.

All the best,

Crumpp

[iart7]

"in 08, we'll fix it."

That's what made me smile so much... that's what you said in '04, and you'll say it again in '12.

"Then we'll be able to (I hope) to join forces once again with the world at our backs to face the real enemy. Religious extremism."

The real enemy? Religious Extremism, you got that right! Isn't that what AQ and Taliban are? But what should be done about that?

And what should Bush (probably Jeb Bush in '08) do about Iran if they get The Bomb? Pre-emptive strike? A few air strikes with pinpoint precision will make the Iranian President sing the new Libyan national anthem. Heard anything from North Korea lately? And NO, I hope we DO NOT GO TO WAR with Iran.

By "the world" you mean the UN? Don't hold your breath. They'll still be cleaning up even more scandals, or finding more excuses for not doing anything in Africa. Do you mean the French, the Russians? Are they helping the anti-AlQuaida militias in Somalia? Who's doing anything there? UN? NO? US!

MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) - An increasingly powerful Islamic militia rolled through its newly captured territory and installed a religious court in one town Wednesday as the remnants of a U.S.-backed alliance of warlords desperately tried to regroup.

The Islamic Courts Union, which has alleged links to al-Qaida, controls the Somali capital and surrounding areas after defeating the secular warlord alliance in weeks of battles that killed at least 330 people, many of them civilians caught in the crossfire. http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2006/05/25/1597907-ap.html

Sex scandal in Congo threatens to engulf UN's peacekeepers...
HOME-MADE pornographic videos shot by a United Nations logistics expert in the Democratic Republic of Congo have sparked a sex scandal that threatens to ...
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1413501,00.html

United Nations Scandal: Kofi Annan Aide Shredded Thousands of ...
The destruction of highly sensitive documents by Kofi Annan's chief aide is a massive obstruction of justice that demands major congressional investigation.
www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4200

Investigate the United Nations Oil-for-Food Fraud
The Oil-for-Food scandal underlines the need for fundamental reform of the United Nations.16 The investigation into the Oil-for-Food fraud should prompt ...
www.heritage.org/Research/ InternationalOrganizations/bg1748.cfm

art
WAIT, don't change the channel yet, go here for a neat animation:
http://www.airforce.com/
actually there are several, REFRESH the page, and be sure to do a mouse-over on each one. i especially like the "cockpit view", WOW!

[eretrc]

you really have to stop this thread there's to many words, my head hurts, :( lol

[Neusch]

...If you ask my the "decisive campeign in the war on terror" was lost a couple years ago when we let OBL slip through our fingers in Afghanistan.

What when the Saudi's offered him to Clinton?

[Target]

Pick your poison. That or when we put Afghani warlords sympathetic to OBL in charge of capturing him as he road a goat past our troops encampments up into the Pakistani mountain range.

[thorwb]

ahhh the joy of an election year ...

as long as the demoknats keep blowing arroung in the political wind,

and stand for nothing in particular, then the gop will rule ...

i was open to another choice in the last two elections and had j.mccain

not lost his political mind, i probably would have gone with him ...

imo dubbya has made some errors in a difficult term and a half

but none terminal to himslf or the party ... the depressing thing is that

the demoknats say the "die is cast", and "we there we must finish",

bla bla bla, yet undermine gwb, and his cause, at every oppertunity ...

consider this,

a)circumstances have put the united states in the posistion

of being the only superpower in the world

b)the decisive advantage of stealth will not last forever.

perhaps it is our duty/destiny to sew the seeds of human rights and

self determination throughout the world, and maby now is the time.

if we manage to set iraq on the path to a stable, free, prosperous,

and secular future, for all it's citizens, the rest of the middle east will

follow. just like the ussr.

the poor and/or female will revolt in saudi arabia, dubai, uae,

will revolt. the oppressed in iran, jordan, syria, will all look with envy

on what iraq has become. just like they look at what isreal has

become with envy. the political postureing

(and thats all it is, if there were substance we would hear alternatives)

in the u.s. only serves to inhibit this process, and enbolden and inspire

those that will loose everything, if freedom takes hold in the midle east.

3000 dead is a terrible price to pay, but 911 shows us that left to it's

own devices, the middle east will exact that terrible toll, whether we

act to change things, or not. make no mistakes gentlemen if the

demoknats were in power, we still would be talking about what to doabout 911.

[iart7]

Thorwb, you are right on your points. Here comes another long-winded Texan explanation, sorry Eretrc.

What I see is this: I honestly believe that a "good" Democrat in the White House would be doing pretty much exactly what Bush has done. Yes, mistakes have been made in the war, a Dem president would make mistakes too.

But in this imaginary scenario, the other side (Republicans) would not be all bent out of shape and siding with terrorists to our detriment the way the liberal left side is doing. IMHO. (Did you hear how America caused terrorist to come to Iraq where they weren't there before? or how Al-Zarquari really wasn't that bad after all? some think Bush caused 911. How dare Bush allow torture? Oh, don't forget we still don't have OBL! and when we do get OBL ... oh well, it was Bush's fault.)

So where is the problem? It's all about (tah-dah!) SOUR GRAPES. The problem is that the left can't get over their idea that Bush "stole" the 2000 and 2004 elections. AND THEY HATE HIM FOR THAT.

art

[Target]

Bush didn't "steal" the 2000 election, he had it given to him by the Supremes. <shrug>

As far as SIDING WITH THE TERRORISTS???!!! Look deep into my liberal eye.... don't try to smear me or people of my "ilk" with that kind of junk again. Seriously man, you're attaching frindge group rhetoric to the whole ball of wax. I'm perfectly capable of keeping what Pat Robertson says from coloring my view of all conservatives, you need to think on that a bit.

[iart7]

Matt,

I'll try not to offend you. I don't use the word "ilk", it's a bad word. I do not include all Democrats with the far left group. Heck, my wife is the one I'm talking about in my posts and she's heard enough from me about this that I'd be wasting my time trying to get her to see things different. She's called Bush every name in the book, as I did Clinton.

What I see here is it's not that much a political or moral thing as it is a personal thing. Hey, I applaud Clinton for some the military actions he took. Heck I don't remember much about Clinton's policies or caring that much about what he did for the nation politically. For me it was a hatred of the man, his attitude, his air of "look at me! ah'm the best and ah can do anything i want. women are mine, my woman, your woman, all women." You probably see a snicker everytime you look at Bush. I see/saw the same in Clinton.

Question..., Does Bush get credit for getting (Hitler and Goebels) Saddam and Al-Zarqawi? Libya? Freedom and democracy in Iraq? DOING something after 911? Pride in our troops and grateful to them? Hey, we have so little un-employment that we even have jobs for millions from another country.

If you don't cede any of these, then it's clear you hate the MAN. To you he can do nothing right, right?

art

PS: I'll tell you where you can watch Chris Matthews if you tell me where can I see to Pat R. I'll watch one hour of Chris if ou watch one of Bill O'Reilly, deal?

[Neusch]

Question..., Does Bush get credit for getting (Hitler and Goebels) Saddam and Al-Zarqawi? Libya? Freedom and democracy in Iraq? DOING something after 911? Pride in our troops and grateful to them? Hey, we have so little un-employment that we even have jobs for millions from another country.

art

Right on, Art.


If you (rhetorical you, not someone specific) can place all political views aside, and think about the War on Terror: Iraq and Afghanistan

Many of the oppressed citizens of those countries for the most part view the US in the SAME LIGHT AS THE FRENCH, DUTCH, POLES, CZECHS AND JEWS OF EUROPE in May 1945, as LIBERATORS AND RESTORERS OF HOPE.

Why is that considered a bad thing by the Anti Bush, Anti War, Anti Republican crowd?

[thorwb]

i live in nyc ...

it baffled me, the people protesting the invasion of afganistan,

while one could still smell the fires from wtc. the libs here

are militant, and they think the first election was "stolen" and the 2nd,

well they are convinced the rest of the u.s. are

inbred/retarded/rednecks

the libs just can't face the fact that most of america dissagrees with

them, on how/who should run the united states right now. they cannot

see that the democratic party lacks substance, and purpose

which reveals it's lack of unity. the party leadership still thinks it is

more intelligent than the "average american voter" these are core,

and fundamental flaws in the party, and all they have left is ...

("i hate him, he

cheated, he stole, he killed our boys, he lied, we will never succede,

we shouldn't be there, bla bla bla.)

the true tragity is that these things

are accusiations, either idiotic, and unfounded, or mostly left to be

decided with relation to gwb.

they are facts however when applied to bill clinton.

[Nick]

Its BECAUSE I feel that Bush et al (yes even the dems who supported the IRAQ war [note i did not mention afghanistan]) are responsible for WASTING US soldiers lives on Iraq that I feel strongly, ESPECIALLY as we remember Normandy, that he and his admin should be called to task for entering into an uncalled for fight with a minor world player while taking our eye OFF THE BALL in Afghanistan. Bad intel or no, Bush PUSHED the war in Iraq on us and on top of that he totally forked up the op and made every rookie mistake (strategically) that one COULD make. And the cost in our soldiers lives AND in the repurcussions of not effectively fighting AQ are too high to be ignored.

What you want me to do is shut up and wait for 08. I won't. It needs to be shouted from the rooftops. Our leader is an idiot, we know it, and in 08, we'll fix it. Then we'll be able to (I hope) to join forces once again with the world at our backs to face the real enemy. Religious extremism.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

<Target hops off the soap box.>



http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/itsgoodtobejfk.htm


http://scaryjohnkerry.com/flipflop.htm The demacrat way.




and My favorite http://scaryjohnkerry.com/wmd.htm


Sure lives get lost in a war, war is hell, casualities will be made. Same as wwII, it was a war against japan, but you know what happend. All the people complaind about the war back then. Only 65 years later, is it a good thing.





Amd we have japan that loves us:rolleyes: Amazing isnt it. After hell comes good cause. No more nazis, no more socialist. No more facist.

And terrorism is comparable to the nazi party if you ask me.

[iart7]

Dang, Nick...
that's cruel. didn't you hear our leader, "don't be cruel".
:p
art

[Nick]

dont think we have 0 allies (some people). Nato treaty


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO


I know its wiki, but it has a good description of the treaty.


Im not trying to be cruel, im just tired of hearing people say republicans always lie.
Its a simple misunderstanding.




"So long as they don't get violent, I want to let everyone say what they wish, for I myself have always said exactly what pleased me." -- Albert Einstein



"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." --Albert Einstein --This one is my favorite)

[iart7]

Just curious about everyone's feelings about what's happening in Israel with Hammas -- ???????

1. whoa, slow down, let the UN handle this
2. go for it, give em hell -- do they have enough nukes?
3. what the hell are they doing, it was just a little misunderstanding?
4. if anyone knows what they're doing the Israeli's do (5000 year history of fighting nmes)
5. i have a P-51 with a blue star they can borrow
6. those Jews are just trying to use Cowboy Diplomacy
7. i don't know, i'm waiting for the political cartoons
8. i actually supported Israel before I voted against this war

art
http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/hamas.htm

[iart7]

my mistake, Hezbollah, not Hamas.

... anyway, we can send Condi Rice to Beirut every coupla days and give them all some ceasefire rest ...

A year or two ago, I heard about a police department (i think in Denver?) that used a triangulation device to pinpoint where a gunshot was coming from. With todays technology and satellites, why can't they interpret where a Hezbollah missle is coming from and send a rocket back to that spot? Just park a few satellites (the kind that can read a license plate on a car) in orbit over southern Lebanon (http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/300/350/355/july-war/index.html) and in no time we can stop the rockets. I can just about make out the launchpads using Google Earth (http://earth.google.com/tour/thanks-mac.html). How about you?

If we have to, we can rent the satellite time to Israel and they can send the bill to the UN. I can't think of a better way to use the UN money.

[Nick]

We try too.

Everytime, isrieal (Spell) ,gets a location on the missles, the time it takes to scramble jets, is pretty long.

by the time the people come from the basement to land, they are long gone underground by the time the fighters get there.


Notice why they are pushing ground assault hardist.

[Badair]

At the base of this whole argument there is the fairly simple fact that seems to be getting ignored. A country should and does whatever is in its own best interests at that moment with as much foresight as is available to them. Mistakes get made, what if's and if only we had's get asked and remarked upon. In the end fair and right and just and things like equality and right and wrong have nothing to do with a nations or organisations decisions. It's all about the bottom line, whether that means cheap oil for the SUV driving masses (ie. North America) or dead western soldiers for a free country (ie. Iraq/Afghanistan), so regardless of whether innocent people get killed by "precision" weapons or killed by VB-IED's driven into a crowded market in which a target is walking it doesn't really make much difference. Eventually the group with more power and resources and political/national will will win be it for better or worse. Best thing we can all do is either watch the fireworks on CNN or join the military and get some while the gettin's good. Iraq isn't new, heck I'm astonished 9/11 took as long to happen as it did and that it hasn't happened again. History is rife with similar examples and we should all shut up and let the democratically elected leaders do their thing and if we disagree with it, then vote against em in the next election. Till then pipe down and respect what others are sacrificing their lives for on both sides of these conflicts for people at home regardless of whether you may or may not agree with the why's and how's. <S>

[flubby]

.........
Iraq isn't new, heck I'm astonished 9/11 took as long to happen as it did and that it hasn't happened again. History is rife with similar examples and we should all shut up and let the democratically elected leaders do their thing and if we disagree with it, then vote against em in the next election.
.........


The problem is, a lot of people are not living in the USA and cannot vote but have to deal with the consequences ;).

Regards

Flubby

[Badair]

I fully understand that Flubby, believe me, I'm Canadian ;)

[Neusch]

I'd rather deal with the "consequences" of fighting an unpopular war, than the consequences if we let these Terrorists run amuck.

Flame on, if you must, but we took the battle to them. And I support it 100%

[Target]

I disagree Neusch, we WERE in the right place to hit terrorists (Afghanistan) and then we more or less walked from that fight to go knock on Saddam's hidey hole. He was an evil prick, but he wasn't a terrorist in the "global jihad" sense of the word. IMHO we dropped the ball going into Iraq and gave the terrorists EXACTLY what they wanted, a focal point for muslim anger against the west. IOW, we made their recruitment posters FOR them in Abu Gharabe (sp?).

[Badair]

In all fairness Target there was plenty of hatred of the west to go around before the first gulf war, let alone another one. The western - occidental split has been going for over a thousand years going even before the crusades. These latest batch of war's (1800-present) are just more of the same ol same ol.

[iart7]

Thanks for the history lesson Badair. I know the Bible is not the only history book on the shelf, but I think we may be heading for that "final battle of all battles" and if you are a fatalist, it's been written with black permanent marker. Bush or or no Bush, the clock's ticking. Even Cain could not have changed what's been in THE PLAN. Will it come in our lifetime? Maybe not, but I'm not planning any long trips around the world for my son's college graduation. (he's 9 yrs old now) That's why I don't wear a wristwatch ... I'm afraid it would always say: 11:59 pm!

:)
Happy
:eek:
New
http://www.iart7.com/WARBIRDS/images/smiley2.gif
Year

[Badair]

Oh there can be no doubt that man's time here on earth is winding down, at least I don't doubt it. We've come fairly close many a time (and many more times that aren't made publicly known) to the end of man, <cough> cold war, and a whole slew of others such as conflicts both past and future with North Korea, Indian/Pakistani nulcear holocaust, terrorism (imagine what would happen if a group took control of an intercontinental ballistic missle launcher in Russia and fired on the US before Russia could communicate that it wasn't actually them...), yada yada yada. Nope, we're toast alright, now as my favorite TV anchor (The Simpsons Kent Brockman) said the following:

"Ladies and gentlemen, uh, we've just lost the picture, but what we've seen speaks for itself. The Corvair spacecraft has apparently been taken over- 'conquered' if you will- by a master race of giant space ants. It's difficult to tell from this vantage point whether they will consume the captive Earthman or merely enslave them. One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the ants will soon be here. And I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. I'd like to remind them as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves." -- Kent Brockman

Hear hear Kent, well said, I also welcome whatever new form of life that will soon become the dominant species here on earth and remind them that as a sierra hotel online pilot I could also be of some use...somehow...THE END IS NIGH, NIGH!!!!!

<COUGH> ok, sorry got a little carried away there, anywho, man is inhyerently self destructive and we're all toast, but until then...regardless of you politics please respect the sacrifices made on both sides of conflicts past, present and future and remember for each of your "points" or "views" there are dozens, hundreds, thousands of perfectly reasonable counter points and none of us holds any rights to belittle one another over differing opinions. That said, let the fight resume...<ding>