New calculation for the lift coefficient in the beta, a question

[flubby]

Hello Target,

i read your posting about the change regarding the max. lift coefficient in the new beta. So can you please explain, how it works and what we have to expect from this new calculation?

Make it in some easy words please and maybe you can give us some examples f.e. FW190A4 before and after.

Regards

Flubby

[Crumpp]

Hey Flubby,

Not sure I can tell you exactly how it works. The whole disclosure thing. I can tell in general what it does though and what you can expect.

This makes relative performance more realistic. It also lends the more precise feel to the model.

Aircraft will bleed energy, just not at the same rate as before. Some aircraft will benefit more than others due to older values being corrected. Some aircraft will have their performance envelope reduced and other expanded under the new calculations due to differences in the old values. Many of those values were changed to "tweak" the FM under the old system which was very cumbersome to make small changes too. All will retain their unique design strengths and weaknesses.

It should also "compact" most of the aircraft FM performance. Not to say by any means that all FM's will be the same, but you should see contemprary designs more competative with each other. Such as the Bf-109E1 and the SpitM03 Mk1. By compact I mean the differences will not be as large as before. Our FM's should be closer to their design differences and not caricatures of airplanes. A Bf-109G10 should be completely comfortable it's ability to climb away from a Spit M03 Mk 1. It should not have that same level of comfort from a Spitfire Mk IX Merlin 66. That same Spitfire should not have such a large comfortable level of turn superiorty either. Tactics should dictate the fight and not a "one trick pony" set of tactics either. The "I fly a Spitfire therefore I should turn with everything or I fly a 109 therefore I should just BnZ" mentality will not guarentee success. It will hedge your bets but not be a sure thing in all fights.

The reality is from reviewing numerous airbattles from both sides is that whoever had altitude at the merge came out on top. If both sides met in a co-energy/altitude state, then each side took equal casualties. This is modified of course based on numerical superiority. The fact is though that Oscar Boesch's observation holds true in general for any pilot flying their nations top designs. "I feared no fighter I could see" holds true and is what we are trying to reproduce. That is also why you see pilots from all nations who will swear there aircraft was the best. Whether they flew a P38, P51, Bf-109, La-5FN, F6F, F4U, or a N1K1, all felt they had the best plane in the sky for good reason.

All of these FM's should need some tweaking. For example the FW190 are almost 1000lbs too light.

That is goal of the changes in a nutshell.

Hope that answers your questions!

All the best,

Crumpp

[thorwb]

ok now i'm really confused ...

you say that this update will even out the planeset by date ...

then you finish by suggesting that the fw's are ANOTHER 1000 lbs too

heavy ...

have you flown one lately? it certianly is not the plane that won air

supremacy over europe. loosing it only to overwhelming numbers in the

west ...

it disturbs me that you once again pick out the most undermodeled

aircraft, and seem to have pegged it for another <F>ing. the guns are

so weak that everything ho's a fw now, even the zero ...

quit picking on the luftwaffe, and make a competitive plane set before

you even start thinking about adding weight to anything. its so bad now

that 1/2 my LUFTWAFFE squad can be found in either ponies or ki's.

you are killing the game with the stupid 50cal. there are no japanese

squads any more and only 2 luftwaffe, if jg2 hasn't thrown in the towel

allready ...

really i read crap like that and just am discusted. a ponie that had to

drop its flaps probably never made it home, why dont you start there.

[Crumpp]

I don't think you read my post.

:)

Nice to see a fellow FW-190 fan though.

[omarsr]

the guns are

so weak that everything ho's a fw now, even the zero ...

that 1/2 my LUFTWAFFE squad can be found in either ponies or ki's.


re guns, TARGET can you please push to have ENTIRE ammo overhaul, you (and others) worked so hard on, reinstated in its ENTIRETY? I hate to see all that hard work flushed down the toilet because of some, from apparantly key players, whining.

I want to play the best sim around and hate to see certain players dictate how the game is built. In my mind the best marketing tool IEN can have is to boast the most accurate FM's and weapons.

I am a diehard 109E4 flyer in a historic luftwaffe squad and I too see a lot of squaddies having to fly ponies with only 10% or 20% fuel to get kills and be competative.

By the way, the MGFF of the 109E4 fired the same round as the MG151/20. This needs to be fixed too.

It is sad the ammo review was only live for something like 2 days before it was yanked for "balance". To hell with "balance", make the game right and the players will come.

The game in its current state promotes the myth of "allies won so their equipment was better".

I think this is a blunder business wise as most players do know what most plane's strengths and weaknesses were compared to each other.

omar

[thorwb]

i did read your post, maby i just didn't understand what you meant,

but this is what you wrote.



...

It should also "compact" most of the aircraft FM performance. Not to say by any means that all FM's will be the same, but you should see contemprary designs more competative with each other.

...

All of these FM's should need some tweaking. For example the FW190 are almost 1000lbs too light.

That is goal of the changes in a nutshell.

...
Crumpp

[flubby]

@Thorwb,

after talking to Crumpp some times and reading nearly all of his posts, i am shure, that Crumpp is the first? one, who really wants to model the fm´s like they have been in reality.

I play wb for over 5 years and i saw a developement wich was not very good. One reason was, that the fm´s have been porked. Not only the fm of the 190! ;), but this was one.

There is a big majority of players, who think, that the side, wich has won the war has to have the better planes. I personally agree with crumpp, that all sides had very competetive planes and the differences have not been very big. Every plane has its strong and weak points and there is no ueber plane (maybe except a well flown 262 ;)).
Until now the fm´s are imbalanced and you are right, that the Axis planes suffer more in wrong fm´s than the allied side. This will be changed and the person who had a big (maybe the biggest) influence on that is crumpp, because he always is digging for real life data from trustable sources and he does not neglegt the original data especially from german sources about german planes. This is new in wb ;).

So we should help Crumpp instead of offending him. I am shure that after a complete revision of all fm´s we will have a really new game and imho the best flight sim ever :)

Regards

Flubby

so you should not

[thorwb]

my "you" is to the powers that be ...

i did/do not mean to offend anyone personally ...

however adding 1000lbs to the fw's is ...

its to depressing to think about, if the fw's are 1000lbs too heavy

than there is "something else" in the fm that is working aggnst them in

a big way, and adding 1000lbs certianly is not going to help them, or

compact the fm's, unless you add 4000lbs to the pony,

and 10,000lbs to the hell cat.

[Crumpp]

Thorwb,

Do you have the Open Beta?

All the best,

Crumpp

[flubby]

Thorwb,

Do you have the Open Beta?

All the best,

Crumpp

Same question i got in mind :).

Thorwb, the 190 is now (in the beta) a really competetive plane and it CAN turn. By adding 1000lb it will not loose this ability imho. Maybe after that it will not turn with a Spit5, but still way better than every 190 fm i flew before in wb.

Regards

Flubby

BTW: I don´t want to offend you, too. I am german and my english is not so good. So i will express my excuse in the case, that you felt offended.

[thorwb]

i'm not sure what the point you are trying to make is, what i said WAS in relation to the fw's we are using in the game NOW, not the beta.
not untill the powers that be "tweak" ALL the planes will we know how the f.m. worked out for the luftwaffe rides. all we luftwaffe pilots can do is hope aggnst hope that the numbers aren't "tWEAKED" for the new f.m.
liked the gun/leathality was "tWEAKED" for the luftwaffe cannons (apparantly by special intrests within the "community")

i have flown the dora in the beta and it did feel light, it also felt slow and
accellerated poorly imo, however as expert as i am with the wb fw it is how the planes work RELATIVE TO ONE ANOTHER that will determin the success of the f.m.. that is what was so disturbing about the 1,000 pound comment. until we fly them all aggnst each other how will we know what is what. that is my point, that right off the bat 1000lbs goes on the fw. with no "realsim" testing. it just felt like a <F>orshadowng o<F> <F>uture asdjustments, i<F> you get my point, and <F>eel my dread.

[omarsr]

I feel your pain thor and if they will leave crumpp and TARGET's hard work alone, all should be fine. I really do hope that those higher up than TARGET will leave things alone and not "tweak" settings for "balance" like they did with the ammo overhaul.

We can only wait and see. It does seem that there are some who are not formally associated with IEN that have influence over game settings and "tweaking" of things (like ammo).

I really do hope the "higher ups" will leave things be since they are being made right. Not until the 109E1 acutually makes it through the release and is left alone intact and as modeled that I will feel more confident in them (the higher ups) but I'm not holding my breath.

The 109E1 will be too competative for the likes of some and I fear it will get "tweaked" for "balance" to the objection of those that worked on it. Same goes for the rest of the axis planes.

omar

[flubby]

Lets think positive. New fm´s will be realistic. i am shure :)

Regards

Flubby

[olddog]

Man I hope so, there is a lot of quiet folks who aren't flying right now cause of these issues. I just hope they can wait till some of the "pairs" of AC that fought against each other get released with the new FMs. If these folks start leaving that's just revenue out the window.

I really think they should re-examine the ammo decision, it would help with credibility for sure.

[Smiley]

I loved the 190a4 before the update and it's even better after the update. If there is still 1,000 pounds to be added to it it will place the stall and the turn ability out a little bit from where it is now. It will also affect it's ability to loop as well as it does right now. As far as the guns go, I have had no problems killing planes before or after the update when flying the 190a4 or a8. Just ask Airbub ;) or his 110G :D

The zeros are great, at least the A6M3 is. I tried the A6M5 and didn't like it's turn ability after spending so much time in the 3. It's guns are the same as always to me. Shoot in close, just like in the German planes and everything is great.

My long range gunnery is not good in a large part due to old controllers and very jittery centers. If I'm already pulling for a shot I can get guns on target, if the con is straight and level I have a difficult time. Add in some jinking and I'm going to run out of ammo just a hair faster than patience.

:)